Response by Randy Desmond to Heaven or Earth?
Which was created first?
The reader has to understand two things:
First, the word translated "then" is the Arabic word
"thumma". It can be rendered "Moreover/Furthermore". Jochen
shows this in his web page disputing the number of days of
creation. I mention it again in my response to that page. It
is also true that "thumma" can be rendered "then" (as in a
subsequent "and").
Second, the Arabic word for "he turned" can be rendered
as "he turned", " he has turned", or "he had turned". The
implication being a past action has occured. See "Written
Arabic - An Approach to the Basic Structures" by A.F.L.
Beeston (cost about $25.00), Chapter 3, note 22.
So what does this mean with respect to the verses quoted
by Jochen?
It means that Surah 2:29 may be read as follows:
He it is Who created for you all that is on
the Earth. Furthermore, he had turned to the heaven and had
made them into seven heavens.
That is an acceptable translation of the Arabic and it
does not conflict with Surah 79:27-30. In fact if we assume
it "thumma" means "then", the sentance could potentially be
awkward. (i.e. "...then he had turned...")
So which is the most accurate rendering? I assume there
is no contradiction in the Qur'an and so if I can find a
legitimate context that renders all the data coherent, I
accept that as a proof that contradiction has not been
proven. I don't think anyone can claim "contradiction"
on anything unless there is no alternative explanation which
legitimately explains why a proposed contradiction is not a
contradiction.
Continuing, if you look at Jochen's page on the number of
days of creation you will see that my response to that
supports my argument here. Then look at my response to
Jochens page on the heavens and earth ripping apart (if my
respoonse has been posted - as I write this I'm not sure if
it has), you will further see that the whole creation story
is cohesive when we take all the data into account. I will
grant the reader that this exchange between Jochen and I may
be disjointed and a bit confusing, but please, take all the
information into account. To say it is contradictory or
confusing is not taking into consideration that translations
may be the point of confusion and not the Qur'an.
If these are the kinds of things Jochen has encountered
from Muslims attacking a the Bible, his feelings reflected
in his purpose statement are understandable. Although I do
question his intent and methods for venting these feelings.
It seems questions about these "contradictions" should be
asked before accusations ensue (or appending "...more to
come..." on the webpage - that is a bit presumptuous).
Now, having said all that, I came up with some guide
lines we can apply to any book to prove/disprove
contradictions. Let me know if you think it is fair.
Is there ever a context
for which the proposed contradictory statements are not
contradictory?
If it seems that the statements are still contradictory,
ask the following:
Have I made any
unverified assumptions?
Have I considered all possible definitions of the words?
Have I considered all possible translations of the
words?
Have I considered all grammatical syntatic
definitions/renderings?
Do you agree that if we answer NO to the first two
questions and YES to the last three questions, then we would
seem to have a contradiction?
So if, after considering all of the above information, we
still have a contradiction, then we can conclude that there
is a problem. (Note: this is addressing internal
contradictions of a document, I have not thought whether
this is also a relevant guideline for external
contradictions). Not being scholars in the matters, we could
then even consult scholars in the matters and see what they
have to say. If after all this there is still a problem. So
be it.
Let me also point out that proving contradictions is much
harder than disproving them. So, working with the assumption
that there is none and conclusively proving a contradiction
is a much more credible approach than vice-versa. Now I hope
that we can apply these ideas to both the Qur'an and Bible.
That is the most fair and I hope it addresses Jochen's
concern regarding Muslims which have made attacks on the
Bible. We are not in the business of slandering other
religions, we are in the business of seeking knowledge and
sharing it.
Well, that is my opinion. Is it agreeable? God knows
best.
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